20x Oxygen: How Hyperbaric Therapy Supercharges Healing & Longevity

Jason Sonners [00:00:00]:
If your goal is to have a seizure, then you should do exactly what you just described.

Nick Urban [00:00:06]:
You’re listening to High Performance Longevity. The show exploring a better path to optimal health for those daring to live as an outlier in a world of averages. I’m your host, Nick Urban, bioharmonizer, performance coach, and lifelong student of both modern science and ancestral wisdom. Each week we decode the tools, tactics and timeless principles to help you optimize your mind, body and performance span. Things you won’t find on Google or in your AI tool of choice. From cutting edge biohacks to grounded lifestyle practices, you’ll walk away with actionable insights to look, feel and perform at your best across all of life’s domains. Welcome to the podcast.

Jason Sonners [00:00:57]:
I’m really looking forward to this one. You and I have been trying to figure this, this timing out and I’m excited to share anything and everything with your audience.

Nick Urban [00:01:05]:
Yeah, we had a few technical difficulties before we got started, but now we are ready to roll. And we’ll cover a topic that I haven’t yet mentioned, I don’t think at all on the podcast, and that is hyperbaric. But then we’ll also go beyond that in this conversation. So to start off with why did you get involved in hyperbaric and what exactly is it?

Jason Sonners [00:01:26]:
So I well, let’s do what is it? It’s essentially one of, if not the only way that or device or modality that we can drive higher amounts of oxygen into somebody’s body than whatever they’re carrying right now. So assuming somebody’s moderately healthy, lungs are working, heart is working, if you put a pulse oximeter on somebody’s finger, they should be 98, 99% saturated, meaning they’re essentially carrying all the oxygen that’s possible. Oxygen follows pressure. So the reason when we go hiking or we go somewhere of elevation that somebody starts to notice it’s more difficult to breathe. It’s not necessarily because there’s less oxygen. Percentage air is 21% everywhere on planet Earth at sea level or at the top of Mount Everest. But the reason you cannot breathe at the top of Mount Everest is because there’s less pressure. And pressure is the driving force to move oxygen from the air, from the environment into your lungs and then into your circulation.

Jason Sonners [00:02:30]:
Hyperbaric is really just a temporary increase in atmospheric pressure. So instead of going above sea level, it’s mimicking a temporary below sea level type of pressure. As you increase the pressure, you increase the driving force, moving oxygen into circulation at much greater amounts. And if you add Oxygen, you don’t have to add oxygen, but if you do add oxygen to that, it becomes a multiplying effect. And so rather than relying only on red blood cells for carrying oxygen in a hyperbaric environment, you’re bypassing red blood cell carrying capacity. You’re dissolving, you know, excess or, you know, a surplus of oxygen directly into the plasma of the blood, which normally carries very little oxygen. Now it’s a reservoir of almost unlimited carrying capacity, depending on the pressure someone’s exposed to, the percentage of oxygen that they’re breathing, and the amount of time that they spend inside that chamber. And now we are, because we’re bypassing red blood cell carrying capacity.

Jason Sonners [00:03:31]:
We’re, we’re, you’re delivering exponential, you know, 30%, 60% or 2 times 3 times, 10 times, 20 times, literally 20 times the amount of oxygen. And so this becomes a, a reservoir for increased performance, increased healing capacity, major changes in terms of cellular function, I’m sure, all of which we’ll talk about along the way. But that’s essentially what it is. I had an injury early in my career where I was at the time, I was a full time chiropractor and I was, you know, model. I was basically flipping houses. And so I was buying houses and like remodeling them on nights and weekends while, you know, being a chiropractor during the day. I herniated a disc in my low back and I actually had nerve damage in my right leg. So I was left with right sided drop foot.

Jason Sonners [00:04:21]:
We were training for, for triathlons at the time and like I was just, you know, my back pain went away pretty quickly. My wife is also a chiropractor. My background’s exercise physiology and nutrition, like all the natural anti inflammatories, all the right movements and exercises and rehab. So my back was doing well, but this nerve damage persisted. And quite honestly, it was just a, an accident. I was at a conference, they had these chambers set up. It looked interesting. I had no real knowledge of what it was and what it might do to me, let alone like completely change the trajectory of my life.

Jason Sonners [00:04:57]:
But I went in this thing because it looked cool and I got out and about 20 minutes later I started getting like a pins and needles in my right leg. And that was the first time I felt my foot in about 18 months. And I was like, wait a minute, am I feeling that sensation because of that bag that I just laid in for 20 minutes? And so essentially, you know, I went to talk to the guy, he’s like, oh yeah, well, that’s what it does. I’m like, yeah, says the salesman. But meanwhile, we did about, you know, about, about four hours in 20 or 30 minute increments over the next four or five days. And I left with about 15% recovery in my foot. And so I did buy a chamber and I continued to treat myself and I had a full recovery. And then, you know, from there I started, you know, using it on, on some family, some friends.

Jason Sonners [00:05:42]:
And each time I tried, it was, it was like literally mind boggling what impact it was having. And that’s really when I started kind of getting into the science and trying to understand it better and then apply it differently. And I mean, that was 20 years ago. So in November it’ll be 20 years.

Nick Urban [00:06:01]:
Yeah. I think this technology came to the limelight or it gained some popularity from people like Tony Robbins mentioning it and like professional athletes having them in their houses. And then it’s like slowly trickled into more and more mainstream that now it’s like a lot of people at this point have heard of it. And I think that we’re still going to continue uncovering some of the many uses and things it can help. Like the way I came across it when I was looking into TBIs and treating concussions and everything and like, what are like the things that actually seem to work? And hyperbaric oxygen therapy came up as one of the many things that has some good, like, research and case studies behind. What do you need to know when you’re looking into hyperbaric? First of all, like, if it’s going to work. And then also like, what are the parameters? Because I know that certain things, like the number of treatments make a huge difference. Like you probably won’t experience profound effects from just one session.

Nick Urban [00:07:01]:
Usually it’s like the repeat sessions that people get the best benefit from. And then also it’s like, are you using a hard shell or soft shell? And like, when you start looking at the different like, variables, it gets confusing pretty quickly.

Jason Sonners [00:07:13]:
Yeah. You know, and even to people who do it for a living, you know, it’s confusing. So I can only imagine if that’s not what you do for a living. But, you know, what I said earlier was, you know, depending on the pressure you’re exposed to, the percentage of oxygen and the amount of time. So those are like the three variables that we have to manipulate and play with. And I think what a lot of people get stuck in and stuck on is like, well, you know, probably the most amount of pressure and the highest percentage of Oxygen in the most amount of time, then that’s what I should do. You know, like if a little is good, more is better. And you know, essentially I’ve been spending the last 10 years when I, you know, I’ve been using this thing for about 20, but I’ve been teaching and writing and you know, maybe for the last 10 or so.

Jason Sonners [00:08:01]:
But I’m, you know, I’m trying to get people to understand that it’s not a more is better game. It’s a, you know, right pressure, right percentage and right amount of time for whatever the goal happens to be more in most cases more severe, more acute or like, you know, health threatening something is likely higher pressure, but not always. Once you get into more of sort of like the performance and know sort of wellness longevity side, most people can get away with more mild pressures. In a lot of cases, even if it is something really significant and you all you had access to were mild pressures, it’s still a time factor. So if you give it enough time, you will still likely reach a point of, you know, satisfaction with what it’s offered you. But I think to your point, like probably the biggest misunderstanding besides more is better because it’s not, is like two sessions doesn’t change your entire life forever. And so there’s a lot of people where it’s like, well yeah, I’ll give it a shot. Like I’ll do a session or two and see what happens in my office.

Jason Sonners [00:09:13]:
We, I won’t even do that quite honestly, like unless you’re really like, you could do one or two sessions. Don’t get me wrong, but typically we do these in packages. And the reason for that is, you know, if you’re telling me you want this thing, I know what that takes to get. And so if you’re telling me you want this and I’m telling you you need this, like they need to match up. If I’m tell. If you’re telling me you want this and I’m telling you you need this and you’re not willing, then you’re likely not going to get. I can almost guarantee you’re not going to get the result. And for me the biggest issue there is that then there’s somebody running around saying, which I hear often, I tried hyperbaric, it didn’t work.

Jason Sonners [00:09:52]:
And then I probe and I’m like, oh, tell me more. They’re like, well you know, I’ve got, you know, four autoimmune diseases. I was recently diagnosed with cancer, my immune system is taxed, my I sleep terribly My energy is low and I did two hyperbaric sessions once a month for two months and really nothing changed. And I’m like, you know, well then, you know, I’m sorry that that was your response. But like, I would never have expected anything else. Like, you know, 10 hours, 20 hours, 40 to 60 hours over the course of three weeks, six weeks, eight weeks, 10 weeks. Like those are the kinds of programs that move the needle. And that’s not permanent and forever.

Jason Sonners [00:10:36]:
Like you could do a protocol, move the needle significantly and then take very long breaks and never do it again. You could do a protocol like that, move the needle and then try to find some type of maintenance, you know, or do smaller clusters over periods of time. There’s a number of ways to have an impact and then either make that, you know, maintain that impact or continue to push the needle without having to be three days, five days a week for the rest of your life. It doesn’t work like that. But if you don’t really give it a good shot in the beginning, you know, most of these changes at a cellular level take a long time to really accumulate, become cumulative, and then really, you know, move physiology in a certain direction.

Nick Urban [00:11:19]:
Yeah, and it makes sense if you think about it like you’re spending say 30 minutes an hour max in the chamber and then you’re living 23 and a half or 23 hours in normal conditions, say like normal pressure, normal oxygen concentration. To expect that like 30 minutes or an hour once a month is going to really make a massive difference.

Jason Sonners [00:11:41]:
It’s just not right.

Nick Urban [00:11:42]:
Yeah, it doesn’t seem to make as, as much sense. So if what I’m, what I think I’m hearing you say is that it doesn’t really necessarily matter what kind of protocol you follow, maybe it does, depending on the condition or your use of hyperbaric, but it’s more about like, how are you going to structure it so that you’re getting repeat exposure at a semi frequent or semi regular basis.

Jason Sonners [00:12:05]:
Yeah, I mean, there are certain situations where lower pressure is just better. There are certain situations where higher pressures is better. But almost regardless of the individual instances that are like that, if the time factor is a very consistent factor, like it’s a, it is a time consuming therapy, at least initially, but quite, I mean, obviously I do this for a living and so I might be biased, but like I also have the research to support what I’m about to say. It’s also probably the most, if not like top three in terms of a tool that moves the needle in A way that really nothing else can. Wow. And so it doesn’t need to be part of your all the time story, though some people choose to have it that way. But most definitely it needs to be a part somewhere in your journey as far as to like, you know, shift your health in the way that hyperbaric has the ability to do.

Nick Urban [00:13:09]:
Okay, we will circle back to that because that’s a profound statement right there. It’s a top three tool. How do we recycle?

Jason Sonners [00:13:15]:
I would say top one. I’m just being nice.

Nick Urban [00:13:18]:
Okay, Help me reconcile this, Jason. Oxygen is often called a molecule of life, the gas of life. And at the same time, oxidation is destructive and it breaks down living things and it rusts them, if you will. How is this. How is adding oxygen and increasing pressure and duration helping all these outcomes?

Jason Sonners [00:13:43]:
So, number one, you have to understand and lay that foundation, which is, you know, regardless of the oxidative stress and the potential consequences, life doesn’t exist without this thing. Right. We could both agree with that. Then the question is, well, you know, how, how would a device. And we could also lay another foundation and say that like, there, there’s very few agreements between, let’s say conventional medicine and functional medicine. But one thing that I think both of them would agree on is that oxidative stress is a common denominator amongst almost all chronic illness. Right. So we have this, this issue to work through to understand.

Jason Sonners [00:14:29]:
I’m oxidizing you. That can’t be good for you. Right. So a couple things. Number one is oxidation is a part of normal cellular respiration. So like you breathe, essentially we breathe to get oxygen into the mitochondria. The mitochondria is the part of a cell that makes energy. And every moment of every day that your mitochondria are making energy, which is 24, 7, 365, hopefully it’s also releasing some oxidative stress.

Jason Sonners [00:15:06]:
So that’s just normal. Hyperbaric drives that pathway very heavily. So we get much higher levels of ATP production, but we also get higher levels of oxidative stress. O2 by itself is really pretty stable. So like, compared to ozone. Very quickly I was gonna. What’s that?

Nick Urban [00:15:31]:
I was gonna bring up ozone.

Jason Sonners [00:15:32]:
Okay, so like, ozone is a unstable, super reactive free radical, like by design. So when you give someone ozone, you’re purposefully oxidizing them, and again, there’s other benefits. And maybe we’ll get to that later. O2, when you breathe, it is incredibly stable. And so you’re really not over oxidizing. Them strictly from the breathing. You are oxidizing them from that mitochondrial pathway that I was just talking about. Yeah, we good on that so far.

Jason Sonners [00:16:01]:
So next is, you know, in our, in our design, let’s just say we’re designed to make energy, we’re designed to have oxidative stress. We’re also designed to create the solution for that oxidative stress. So as in normal cellular respiration, normally making energy, we’re, you know, we’re off gassing superoxide, which is the free radical from the mitochondria. Your body has a pathway to take that free radical and then turn it back into water.

Nick Urban [00:16:29]:
Yep.

Jason Sonners [00:16:30]:
And so it goes through this superoxide dismutase enzyme system. Superoxide dismutase, catalase, reduced glutathione, hydrogen peroxide, essentially. And, you know, we’ll make it into water. So we’re taking this free radical and we’re. It’s like the ant. It’s our body’s own antioxidant system. Okay, so any. I mean, the shorter answer, because I can go pretty far down that road if you want, I don’t know.

Jason Sonners [00:16:57]:
But like, the short answer is any study that has looked at oxidative stress from hyperbaric, if you push really hard and really fast, and I would go so far to say even maybe too far and too fast, you will see some increase, but it’s not a lot, but some increase in oxidative stress. Any long term study on hyperbaric, all you actually see is a net decrease in oxidation, an increase in superoxide dismutase, an increase in glutathione, reduced glutathione, an increase in catalase, essentially what we’re saying is it’s a hormetic stress. And because it’s not. Because it’s not coming from outside. I mean, the oxygen is coming from outside, but the oxidation is coming from within. It seems to not deplete your system. It actually seems to wake up and increase the rate by which your own endogenous antioxidant system works. And so the long term net effect is actually reduced oxidation, not increased oxidation.

Nick Urban [00:17:58]:
Yeah. In some ways it seems there’s a parallel there between how it seems that ozone therapy works also. It’s like you increase the stress in the system a little bit. In response, your body upregulates and increases levels of its own natural endogenous antioxidant production. And maybe in the short term, you’ll see an acute rise of oxidative stress. But then over the long term, your body Compensates and gets better at increasing those enzymes and the ability to buffer that stress. And so overall, long term, you have reduced levels.

Jason Sonners [00:18:30]:
Right. And like, in my office or in all the. In the. In all the practices that I’ve been involved with or in teaching and certifying people in hyperbaric medicine, like, my programming would be such that, like, exercise, you know, if you wanted to run a marathon, you wouldn’t just wake up one day, get off the couch and run 26 miles. That would be a stressor far exceeding your capacity to heal and recover. The damage would outweigh the benefit. So you would start walking, walk, run a little bit of a jog. Right.

Jason Sonners [00:19:00]:
And you create a training program that gets you to a marathon safely. Hyperbaric to me is the same. We start everybody at a pretty mild exposure. We make sure that they tolerate it. They have no issues. And then we build that exposure over time in a way that continually stimulates those pathways. But does it slowly and safely, creating sort of that, you know, exercise type phenomenon where at the end they’re just. They’re healthier, they’re more resilient.

Jason Sonners [00:19:26]:
And I never push them, like, over their capacity to heal and recover.

Nick Urban [00:19:32]:
Yeah. So there’s a lot of different ways I can take this. I’m curious about the. Let’s go.

Jason Sonners [00:19:36]:
Every. Let’s go. Every one of them.

Nick Urban [00:19:38]:
Yeah, exactly. If you were to combine this with other things, would you want to combine it with, say, antioxidative therapies and perhaps antioxidant supplements? Or is that going to blunt effects? And conversely, if you were to add things that increase oxidative stress, say, exercise, say ozone, these types of things, do those pair nicely or do those, like, cause too much of a, like, oxidative stress load?

Jason Sonners [00:20:05]:
So great. Yes and no. And sometimes, maybe when somebody’s incredibly fragile and I don’t know if they’re going to tolerate the therapy very well, I will give some antioxidants as a way of. Of buffering that free radical component so that I can ease them into this scenario more gently. But if they’re relatively healthy and they can tolerate it, I think it’s actually one of the most important, if not the most important, cell signaling molecule that our body’s using for healing and recovery. So I wouldn’t want to blunt it. I would. I would separate it.

Jason Sonners [00:20:50]:
Hyperbarics over here get some oxidative stress. Strategic adversity, we call it. Get this strategic adversity. And then later in the day, take your antioxidants. It’s not Going to have an effect, but it would blunt it. Right. So you know, free radical or, or oxidative stress, when it’s in the right amount, is a molecule that stimulates repair and recovery. It stimulates a reduction in inflammation, it stimulates hormone and neurotransmitter rebalance, it stimulates stem cells, it stimulates, you know, HIF1 and Sirtuins.

Jason Sonners [00:21:23]:
Right. Sirtuins are incredibly important for, for from that longevity standpoint. And so, you know, we certainly want to, we don’t want to blunt any of that unless they can’t, unless they’re so unhealthy or so health challenged that even low amounts of hyperbaric are just too much.

Nick Urban [00:21:43]:
Are you a fan or have you looked into the research on molecular hydrogen specifically to selectively blunt some of the reactive oxygen species perhaps like that wouldn’t interfere with the cormatic process and the adaptations that occur as a result of exposure.

Jason Sonners [00:21:58]:
So that’s kind of my first, that would be like my go to tool initially and we have it next, like literally next door to my chamber room, like drink a glass of hydrogen water, jump in the chamber in those cases, like that’s, that’s definitely a thought and it’s certainly exactly what you said makes perfect sense. Again, there are people where I really don’t want them to do that. I want to get a full exposure of, you know, as much stress as I can give them because they can handle it. And I want that, you know, and then the more fragile person, the hydrogen is not enough. And so maybe that’s like a, a selenium or a glutathione push or you know, some other tool to really like down regulate those pathways.

Nick Urban [00:22:42]:
Yeah. And then I know a lot of people for different reasons for the energy generation, ATP production reasons. They’ll use like methylene blue or something. What are your thoughts on that?

Jason Sonners [00:22:52]:
Yeah, so you know, to me, you know, every cell in your body, other than the red blood cells that carry it, need and use oxygen, have a mitochondria, if that. You know, your red blood cells are the only cells that don’t have a mitochondria. So every other cell is a mitochondria, which means every other cell is capable of using oxygen as part of its energy production. And when we’re using oxygen as part of our energy production, the amount of energy we’re creating is exponential versus when we’re not using it. And when you dump more oxygen into the system, you can really increase the capacity. Like that’s one of the most from A bottleneck standpoint, that’s one of the most significant rate limiting steps to energy production is, is the amount of oxygen that we have. So that’s why we see such a big mitochondrial or energy production shift when it comes to hyperbarics. So you know, from that standpoint, if you are delivering oxygen in and that’s a found, like to me that’s a foundational step, then I’m like, well, what’s your goal? Right? So like if you said to me your goal was energy production, I’d be like, let’s go in fasting, right? So we’re like upregulating ketones.

Jason Sonners [00:24:10]:
Oxygen upregulates fat metabolism. So it shifts people away from glucose metabolism and into fat metabolism. Methylene blue is this, you know, major, let’s say, you know, electron donor to the electron transport chain. Let’s jump some red light before you go in to like ping pong some cytochrome C. Let’s drink some hydrogen to push the hydrogen gradient inside the intramembranous space and make sure you’re taking enough CoQ10, you know, as another mobile carrier, like that would be that kind of a stack. But if you said to me, you know, my biggest issue is inflammation, I’d say, okay, well, hyperbaric, like there’s, there’s about 12 mechanisms of action of hyperbaric and there’s like different categories, right? So there’s a, there’s like a mechanical component, there’s a immunological component, there’s a hyper oxygenation component, and then there’s like a regenerative, like a tissue repair, cellular repair, regenerative components. So like we know without a shadow of a doubt, not controversial. Hyperbaric reduces systemic inflammation literally for every human that goes inside.

Jason Sonners [00:25:22]:
So, okay, so we want to lower inflammation. So like hyperbaric could be a foundational, I lower inflammation. Maybe this person though, you know, you know, here’s some other supplement like nat, like curcumin. I’m just making stuff up now, but we’re like, you know, curcumin and I don’t know, some omega 3s and then here’s some BPC156, here’s some peptides that also lower. So to me it’s like we could have a goal. Hyperbaric does so many things. It could easily be one of the foundational components. But then the stack is like all these individual pieces that like hone in on that goal.

Jason Sonners [00:26:03]:
That’s often like in my office, at least, like that’s how I view it. I’M like, what are you trying to accomplish? Is this hyperbaric part of that or not? If it is, here it is. And now how many other things work well with that for that goal?

Nick Urban [00:26:17]:
Yeah, it makes sense to go in with the goal in mind. Otherwise it’s like how can I optimize? And hyperbaric would be an expensive way if you don’t have anything or even like if you don’t know what you’re targeting. It’s like then you’re okay, general optimization or longevity or something, then you can go, that’s still a goal. But if you just go in like, I don’t know, I just want to try hyperbaric. It’s like, well, you’re probably going to need like a, a bunch of sessions. You’re going to need to have like.

Jason Sonners [00:26:38]:
Right. It’s a time consuming and financially consuming like question mark if you have no idea what you’re trying to, you know. But if you have an idea and we could even measure quite a few different things to under like, you know, either from like an inflammatory standpoint or from a biological aging standpoint. Right. There’s some pretty cool, you know, tests out there that help us understand what kind of impact hyperbaric might have. And we could add it as a goal or as a tool to meet your goal once we know what that goal is. But like to just jump into 20 hours of hyperbaric and have no idea why you’re doing it. Like I would discourage that.

Nick Urban [00:27:18]:
I want to explore some of the different therapeutic gases with you. Or we’ve mentioned a bit about oxygen and we’ll keep going deeper on that. Cuz that’s obviously a big thrust here. But then I also want to talk about the role of carbon dioxide. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Dr. Ray Pete, but he popularized carbon dioxide as being like an anti aging longevity gas. And it seems to get unfairly demonized these days. It has like a lot of roles and the bore effect and stuff like that, you’ll, you can break that down.

Nick Urban [00:27:44]:
Then there’s also ozone, which we’ve, we’ve talked about a little bit several times. And then I guess you could also categorize hydrogen. Where do they compare and contrast? Like how do I know if I want to use say a carbon dioxide therapy? I was at the biohacking conference and they had a company there that does CO2 therapy exclusively. That’s all they do. But then obviously there’s a role and time and place for each of these different gases.

Jason Sonners [00:28:07]:
Yeah, so you know, gases can be viewed. And quite honestly, that was like part of the reason I had decided as a, as an old man to go back to school was, you know, I think a lot of these, I would, I would consider them pretty non invasive. You know, they’re pretty benign though. In the wrong dosages they can be catastrophic. But you know, like carbon dioxide, if you breathe 100% carbon dioxide, we have some serious problems. But it’s not something foreign like your body knows what it is. It’s always trying to manage it. In fact, it manages it very well.

Jason Sonners [00:28:44]:
But again, is it a potential either hormetic stressor or almost a potential nutrient? In some ways. Like, I view oxygen from a hyperbaric standpoint almost as it’s a molecule that’s required for these, you know, anabolic regenerative steps or like energy production. Like I view it sort of more through like a nutrient lens. Hydrogen, I would view also a little bit more through like a nutrient lens. Like a hydrogen molecule is all over your body. It’s incredibly important. There’s a way that your body already has access to hydrogen and, or like your microbiome produces the overwhelming amount of hydrogen gas in your body. So healthy should be healthy microbiome would have a healthy amount of hydrogen.

Jason Sonners [00:29:37]:
Raise your hand if you know somebody that doesn’t have a healthy microbiome. So like, yeah, are people deficient in that? And that’s what I would look at it like a hydrogen deficiency legitimately, you know. So like, whereas ozone is not a nutrient or on the deficiency insufficiency spectrum, ozone is a molecule that’s oxygen based but is a targeted hormetic therapy. Carbon dioxide is, you know, has been deemed a, you know, essentially it’s just a waste product. Your body is just trying to get rid of it, you know, but it would kill you. So it’s a bad, you know, people took a bad guess. That’s a bad guess. You know, I breathe it three times a week, 15 minutes at a pot on a regular basis.

Nick Urban [00:30:22]:
You do?

Jason Sonners [00:30:23]:
I do, yeah.

Nick Urban [00:30:24]:
Okay.

Jason Sonners [00:30:24]:
So like, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s a bad guess. I think it’s a good guess. And I think that there’s a way, you know, to utilize these tools. Now again, you can’t, you know, you. So you were just at the recent biohacking.

Nick Urban [00:30:37]:
Yep.

Jason Sonners [00:30:37]:
You know, like, so you’re walking around, I mean, they had that giant vendor, all three stories of other vendor. Like if you actually. And, and this is one of my, I don’t Know, like pet peeves. I guess about it. It’s like, how many things can I buy? How many things can I do? Essentially I need to become, you know, independently wealthy so I don’t have to work and I could just like wake up and hack my way until I go to bed. And it’s like, it becomes an unending, like, quest. And there are people who, you know, it becomes like stressful. Like I can’t, I can’t get it all in.

Jason Sonners [00:31:16]:
I can’t do it all. Like, I’m like. And that’s a whole like, yeah. Issue, you know, unto itself. So even inside these gases, it’s not like. Now I’m not telling you, you should breathe oxygen and then hydrogen and then. Oh, we maybe I could breathe hydrogen, oxygen, ozone and carbon dioxide through fortive and like, that’s, that’s kind of the direction that biohacking ends up kind of taking things at times. But it’s like, we just have to understand that there are different tools for different purposes, for different people, for different goals or different concerns.

Jason Sonners [00:31:46]:
And then we have all of these incredible tools out there. And every year there’s new tools coming out and new ways to understand them, but they still have to be like, like pressed and pulsed. Part of your story, removed from your story. Here’s a. You know, I look at my own life and I say like, roughly. It’s not a perfect science, but roughly. Every quarter I have a different goal. Like, I’m not solving for anything right now.

Jason Sonners [00:32:13]:
Although, like two years ago I tore my shoulder. Like, that was a very specific goal. Right. Right now that’s all good and I’m not solving for anything. So I’m like, I want to work on this. And so I put together the pieces, the programming and the protocols that let me work on that. I got a bunch of other stuff I’m not using right now.

Nick Urban [00:32:34]:
Yeah.

Jason Sonners [00:32:34]:
Because I’m working on this. And then next quarter I’ll probably put a bunch of those away, I’ll take out some other toys, I’ll have a new goal and then I’ll create a system for that. At least that way, like over the course of a year, I’m like moving multiple needles. But I’m never getting like totally overwhelmed with like adding, adding, adding, adding. You know what I mean? I’m sure you see that.

Nick Urban [00:32:59]:
Oh yeah.

Jason Sonners [00:33:00]:
Phenomenon. Right.

Nick Urban [00:33:01]:
Pretty soon you have the four hour morning routine and you have your three and a half hour evening routine. It’s like, okay, well I have one hour in the middle of my day that I Can actually do anything else.

Jason Sonners [00:33:09]:
Talk to somebody, play with my kids, maybe eat or not eat because I’m fasting. Like.

Nick Urban [00:33:16]:
Why did you add carbon dioxide into your routine? Like you said, every other day or three times a week?

Jason Sonners [00:33:20]:
I think. Yeah. So I, you know, similar research that you’re talking about, like Ray Pe. There’s other people that are looking, you know, right now in the research of like carbon dioxide having a place inside of caring for people with a variety of different cancers as well. You know what I, in my general, and, and then we could talk again. I want to hit those gases. But my general like philosophy on health, let’s just say as a, in a, if I could, if I could say it in a sentence.

Nick Urban [00:33:53]:
Yeah.

Jason Sonners [00:33:54]:
Would be something about this, this like idea of strategic adversity. Like if we know that sirtuins are, let’s say longevity molecules, long longevity signaling molecules. And we know that sirtuins are essentially stimulated by adversity. And so like, you know, even our brain is capable of incredible, you know, computations, but it still needs a stimuli.

Nick Urban [00:34:22]:
Yeah.

Jason Sonners [00:34:22]:
You know, and like a, you know, like a kid growing up without proper guidance and given everything whenever it wants, like turns out to be sort of like a non functional member of our society and just lazy and sort of, you know, let’s say spoiled to some degree or like they think everything, you know, that they, they just earn everything for nothing. Like our cells would be very similar that way. And so without this strategic adversity from a cellular standpoint, we can’t get rid of dysfunctional cells, we can’t kill cells that aren’t behaving properly, we can’t recycle them, they just continue to live and become dysfunctional members of the society, which is what I think leads to a lot of chronic illness. So through strategic adversity and like stimulating sirtuins by killing bad cells, by exercising hormetic responses, that’s how just conceptually we build a healthy human over decades and decades and decades. And so let’s talk about carbon dioxide. Like carbon dioxide is a waste product. It is something your body’s trying to get rid of. So when you start inhaling it on purpose, the body has to work even harder to manage, deal with that, that stressor from a standpoint, from a, from a carrying standpoint, from a red blood cell standpoint.

Jason Sonners [00:35:58]:
And so that’s a major, major stress that in the right doses over the right periods of time could become really can improve red blood cell carrying capacity overall. Red blood cell, you know, you know, getting oxygen and carbon dioxide, but getting oxygen, delivering oxygen, carrying carbon dioxide and eliminating it. So it’s exercising those pathways. We’re balancing your ph more quickly and more effectively. And so, you know, when I first started doing carbon dioxide, I was breathing like 2%, you know, for five minutes. And I was like, like, it feels, if you’ve never done it for anyone watching, like, it feels like you’re exercising incredibly hard and you’re, you’re, you’re really struggling to catch your breath. So, like, you are working when you’re breathing carbon dioxide. And so at 2% for five minutes, I felt like I just ran a marathon.

Jason Sonners [00:36:58]:
Yeah. You know, now I’m doing like 8% for 15 minutes. And I, I, I’m working, but I’m, it’s controlled.

Nick Urban [00:37:05]:
Yeah.

Jason Sonners [00:37:06]:
Right. So I’ve, I’ve gone through this whole range of increasing of time and increasing of percentage to build a carbon dioxide tolerance. Yeah. Having a carbon dioxide tolerance will have tremendous effects on your ph. It’ll have tremendous effects on your autonomic nervous system. It’ll have tremendous effects on your ability to exercise and sustain elevated heart rates at more, you know, at a more calm cardiovascular performance. There’s a number of, of benefits. But I guess to answer your question, because I’m just trying to be the healthiest me, and I think that this is a major one.

Jason Sonners [00:37:42]:
So I love it. And I use those guys, Steven Scott, you know, they had that booth over there. That’s who I’ve been using for the last few years. I love it.

Nick Urban [00:37:52]:
It’s interesting. I noticed that it definitely has an impact on mood, which makes sense. And the old recommendation when someone’s having a panic attack is like, give them a brown bag.

Jason Sonners [00:38:00]:
Right.

Nick Urban [00:38:00]:
And they breathe into that because they’re getting a higher concentration of CO2. But what you said is also important to underscore. It’s not a hundred percent CO2. It’s like two to max eight percent.

Jason Sonners [00:38:11]:
Two to four for most people is like incredibly powerful.

Nick Urban [00:38:15]:
Yeah.

Jason Sonners [00:38:15]:
And needs to be, you know, regulated that way. Now, here’s another example. Somebody, and you would know, but somebody once called me and they were like, hey, I have a good idea. I’m going to go into my chamber at 2 atmospheres on 100% oxygen, get fully oxygenated. And once I’m fully, you know, after like 30, 40 minutes, I’m going to start huffing, you know, 4% CO2. So, like, put that on the side for a second. When I teach these classes, we talk about lots of things, but oxygen toxicity is a big One. So outside of even the oxidative stress, there is something called oxygen toxicity.

Jason Sonners [00:38:50]:
And you can get too much, but oxygen toxicity from a neurological standpoint, you have to first have a high load of oxygen, and then often oxygen’s a vasoconstrictor. And so part of that is that it’s. It’s. It’s constricting blood flow to your brain so that you’re not hyper. Like, you’re not overdoing neurological oxygenation because there’s consequences of that. Carbon dioxide is a vasodilator. Right. And so 2 atmospheres, which is a pretty high amount of pressure.

Jason Sonners [00:39:23]:
40 minutes, you’re fully oxygenated. It’s usually carbon dioxide that pulls the trigger for oxygen toxicity. And the worst version of that could be a seizure. And it’s. It’s. It’s temporary. And it. It doesn’t mean you need, you know, seizure medication.

Jason Sonners [00:39:36]:
You’re not an epileptic. It’s just like a. It’s a glitch from, like, a huge amount of oxygen, you know, So I told him, like, listen, that’s a. That’s an incredible idea. You should definitely do that. If your goal is. Again, I’m always back to goal. If your goal is to have a seizure, then you should, you know, do exactly what you just described.

Jason Sonners [00:39:53]:
Otherwise, as much as I love. And he knew that I loved both of these tools, and he thought he came up with a great way to, like, combined. I’m like, some things are designed to be combined for synergy, and some things need to be separated purposefully. Carbon dioxide and hyperbaric is one of those needs to be separated, you know, versus hydrogen. Back to hydrogen. Selective antioxidant could buffer some of the consequences without being over the top and. Or adds all these other hydrogen benefits to, you know, this person’s body, those can be combined in not every case, but in many cases. And they’re gonna.

Jason Sonners [00:40:34]:
They’re gonna work really well together to synergize, you know, certain reactions.

Nick Urban [00:40:38]:
Yeah, it seems like that’d be a biological mismatch, too. Like, where in the natural world would you be able to have both hyperbaric and get that oxygen and then also moments later, have really high concentration CO2 that you’d be inhaling. Like, your body has the protective mechanisms built in so that you. If you have high concentration of oxygen, then you’re not going to be flooding your brain, or maybe not flooding your. Your brain, but increasing the waste, if you will, in your brain, because your body can’t have that. It’s mission critical to keep the brain working smoothly. And so we’re going to protect the brain from that. But then you try and override that because, you, quote, know better.

Nick Urban [00:41:16]:
That’s when you start playing with fire and can have, like, serious consequences.

Jason Sonners [00:41:19]:
Yeah. As soon as I he. Even if I start, if I’m like, oh, I have a good idea, and I think I knew better than whoever designed me. Like, I know I’m creating problems, you know, or when I hear it coming out of somebody, I’m like, those two things don’t typically work like that. I think we’re asking for trouble. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I agree 100%. You know, lastly, just to talk about ozone, if you want, before you do.

Nick Urban [00:41:43]:
My experience with the carbon dioxide at the event was, like, it felt like after five minutes of inhalation, I think I did. I was doing 7%, like, really high. Under the mindset of, like, more is better. But after about five minutes, I felt like I was maybe backpacking at, like, 14,000ft, where it’s like the baseline just, like, sitting there breathing. Felt like I was. I had just exercised. And, like, it’s that same similar feeling where it’s like you’re kind of out of breath, but, like, didn’t really make sense because you’re kind of just sitting in a chair, in inhaling, and I’m like, oh, this is actually, like, in a way, it feels like exercise.

Jason Sonners [00:42:19]:
Yeah. I mean, I. I literally. That’s exactly right. And I think for some people, if you. If you push that really hard and fast, it. It feels scary because when you’re exercising and you feel that way, you’re like, oh, duh, I’m exercising. So I feel that way.

Jason Sonners [00:42:38]:
When you’re sitting on a reclining chair, totally relaxed, but you can’t catch your breath. It could be a little. For some people, I could see it being a little, like, anxiety driving. Like, why do I feel like this if I’m not? But if you can relax into that, which is why you really want to start at much lower percentages. For most people, if you can just, like, let go and relax into that, you can almost get into, like, a steady state of breathing, like you’re doing some sort of exercise at a elevated heart rate, elevated respiration rate, but you can. You found your groove where you can kind of stay there. I think that’s kind of what you’re looking for. But, you know, I often, like, I’ll do, like, if I sleep terribly.

Jason Sonners [00:43:22]:
And I, like, that’s one of the first things I like to do in the morning because it’s almost like going to. I’ll even do it before I go to the gym, but it’s like, almost like going to the gym and then I get this like endorphin rush, I think as part of that. And you know, when you were saying like mood stabilization and like there’s. There’s a bunch of like little bonuses, I think from stuff especially carbon dioxide. And it’s quick, right? You could, you could do five minutes, six minutes, and like feel something quickly. So I like it for all those reasons.

Nick Urban [00:43:52]:
To put a bow in this though, there’s a interplay between oxygen and carbon dioxide. An effect that I believe is called the bore effect. And that’s like, if you have no carbon dioxide, the hemoglobin in the red blood cells is more stingy, doesn’t release the oxygen as well. But then when you introduce a little bit of carbon dioxide, then it’s able to like, oxygenate your body better. Wouldn’t you want to have some carbon dioxide in hyperbaric for that reason? Is it. That’s not necessary.

Jason Sonners [00:44:20]:
So it’s not necessary because we’re always like. You would have to be in kind of extreme environments for your CO2 levels to be that low. So there’s like this, the oxygen, carbon dioxide, disassociated, you know, the oxyhemoglobin disassociation curve. Like at higher pressures, red blood cells don’t give away much. At lower pressures, it will not hold on. The red blood cells will just dump it. Right. And.

Jason Sonners [00:44:50]:
But most of physiology lives at pretty high pressures. Even, even once it’s delivering it. In other words, even a cell that needs the oxygen, you know, it. It loses 60 millimeters of mercury of pressure. So it loses a lot of prep, but it only loses like 25% of its capacity. So, you know, red blood cells generally whole, even right now, we call it deoxygenated blood. Deoxygenated blood is still 75% saturated. And so red blood cells are very, almost kind of stingy all around, you know, until there’s like mass.

Jason Sonners [00:45:27]:
Like you held your breath for two minutes or you’re doing something like high intensity interval training. You know, that’s where you start to get like even 50% loss. But you have to be like almost near death before it’ll Release the other 50%. But when you add CO2. Yeah, you can sh. You or lower CO2 or body temperature. There’s things that shift that curve, you know, stingier or shift that curve a little Bit more, you know, free to give. And so increased CO2 does increase the likelihood that the body will push a little bit more of that oxygen into those cells.

Jason Sonners [00:46:07]:
So one of the things like this is just a Jason thing. I wouldn’t even tell anyone except that we’re talking about it. But like, I’m not even using this in protocols yet. I would never do carbon dioxide before hyperbaric. I would never do carbon dioxide during hyperbaric, definitely. But to do some carbon dioxide after hyperbaric, where now you’re out of the hyper oxygenated environment, you still have a lot, but you’re really, it’s coming out of you and trying to initiate a lot of cell signaling changes, then do some carbon dioxide to push even more into circulation. That, that impact, I think in that first hour post could really like, magnify the benefits of hyperbaric. So that’s, that’s just something I’ve been playing with.

Jason Sonners [00:46:51]:
I’m starting to see certain changes and, you know, in the next, like quarter or so, I’ll be bringing that into the office and, and actually doing that with, with patients as well.

Nick Urban [00:47:00]:
Nice. So to prevent like blunting the effect of hyperbaric or in the case of carbon dioxide, of pushing pathways you don’t want to push necessarily, would you recommend waiting about an hour afterward before adding, say, administering antioxidants or doing CO2?

Jason Sonners [00:47:20]:
CO2, yeah. I mean, CO2, I think it’s safer sooner. I would certainly wait at least 15 or 20 just to like, you know, there’s an off gassing. So when you get out of kind of like a bottle of seltzer, right. When you, when you, when you’re before you open the bottle, all that gas, that’s actually carbon dioxide in water, but all that gas is inside solution. You don’t see it when you open it, you start to see these bubbles coming out. Right. And if you leave it open long enough, it’ll just turn into water.

Jason Sonners [00:47:49]:
Right. With hyperbaric, it’s very similar. You’re getting all this gas into your liquids, but it’s oxygen. And when you get out of the chamber, all that oxygen’s trying to get out. It can’t actually escape your body. But as it’s, as it’s leaving circulation, it’s interacting with lots of other cells and tissues nearby, and it’s extending the distance that oxygen’s normally able to travel. So inside that first four hours post, you are off gassing an incredible amount. But don’t picture it as off gassing, leaving you, it’s Just leaving circulation and nourishing you at an incredible rate.

Jason Sonners [00:48:23]:
So quite honestly, I would say almost 80, I think 80% or more of the benefits of hyper bear are not the time in the chamber. It’s those hours after. And so you. You go in the chamber to load, and you get benefit of that. But the biggest benefit, I think, is the unloading for the few hours after. And so, you know, for antioxidants, I would wait a little longer, like two to three hours, Because I want to unload as much as I can. Carbon dioxide, I want to kind of catch it a little earlier. So 30 minutes, 40 minutes inside of the first hour, I think might have the biggest push.

Nick Urban [00:48:59]:
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. So now with ozone and actually with hyperbaric in general, like, there’s obviously certain parts of the body that are. That thrive with oxygen and certain parts of the body that thrive without oxygen. And I think I learned from Dr. Mercola that the colon is a largely anaerobic environment, like the colonocytes and like the commensal, beneficial, like microbes there in a lot of the. The pathogenic or think things that you don’t want there, they thrive on oxygen. So by introducing either ozone as directly administered most often, or even perhaps hyperbaric, Is there no risk of, like, throwing off the balance in different parts of the body that generally don’t have oxygen?

Jason Sonners [00:49:47]:
I’ll. I’ll circle back to that. I want to start with just like there’s O2 and O3, right? O2, you breathe. O3 is unreal, you know, is pretty reactive, and it’s not something. Sorry. Yeah. Ozone is O3. Molecular oxygen is O2.

Jason Sonners [00:50:02]:
O2 is what we breathe. You would not have, like, a mask of ozone, and you would be breathing ozone. That’s not a thing. But ozone is a unstable, free, radical form of oxygen and has incredible. You know, first of all, it’s a great, you know, clean, cleanser of things. And then, you know, you people could use it for a range of benefits. What I would say is hyperbaric is predominantly regenerative and has some oxidative component to it. Ozone is incredibly oxidative and has some regenerative component.

Jason Sonners [00:50:40]:
So depending on what you’re trying to accomplish, you know, someone has an infection of some kind, like, I would push ozone harder, at least initially than hyperbaric. If someone had tissue damage, I would push hyperbarics exponentially harder than ozone. Can they both help in both? Yes, but they have, you know, targeted benefits because of the way they work. And then people could administer you know, auricular, you know, vaginal rectal, you know, but essentially you’re getting this gas iv. You know, we do ozone iv. So essentially you’re just trying to get ozone into the system, you know, to do its thing, but it’s not a respiratory gas. So yes, here you are. Your brain loves oxygen, let’s say parts of your intestine love oxygen, parts of your test, and really prefer not to have oxygen.

Jason Sonners [00:51:41]:
So what you were saying before is like different body parts have different tolerances or expectations for different amounts of oxygen. You know, and when you breathe oxygen, particularly hyperbaric, you are generally, you’re raising the oxygen tension everywhere, but you’re also doing it in pretty small amounts, should be pretty small amounts. And, and for short periods, like 60 minutes out of 24 hour cycle, as an example, you know, and for, I don’t know, six weeks, not indefinitely, but like anything, if you go too high of pressure for too long of a period of time, for too many weeks and months at a time, you can start to shift an environment that wasn’t looking for that shift. You know, I would say that, you know, a lot of people out there have chronic inflammation in their gut. They have pretty crappy microbiomes. They’re all out of whack to begin with. Hyp, you know, hypoxia is a, is a consequence of chronic inflammation. And then pathogens, which are often anaerobic, also so bad bacteria that cause infection typically don’t want oxygen.

Jason Sonners [00:52:53]:
So for the average person, a good amount of hyperbaric for a good amount of time not only won’t have those consequences, it’s likely it would shift it in a, in a better direction than they happen to be. But that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t also have hydrogen exposures and carbon dioxide exposures to try to use gases and other supplements, maybe to try to rebalance periodically, you know, you know, Mercola and I have this conversation often because, you know, there were periods that he was a huge fan of hyperbarics and periods where he felt like, hey, maybe hyperbaric is not good because of that effect it’s going to have on beneficial bacteria that don’t like oxygen. And I would never disagree with that. All I would say to that is that’s not a rule, that’s an individual component, right? Like someone, certain people’s microbiome would benefit from a good amount of oxygen for a really long period of time. Potentially someone else might from a mild amount of oxygen for a shorter period of time. Occasionally, like crohn’s and colitis cases and stuff like that will push high oxygen for long periods because of its tissue. Like as long as you have infection and inflammation and, and things are breaking down, like you can’t heal. So to push it high for an extended period to create this massive healing response and then deal with their microbiome could also be very appropriate.

Jason Sonners [00:54:26]:
So it’s not to ignore anything. It’s not to say one of these areas is right or wrong again, it’s just to say that there’s a way to do it and if you’re thoughtful about it, you can prioritize which ones we’ll start with, which ones come next, which ones come next. And we’re not pushing all of it every day back to the cycling of therapies over time, which I think is important almost for everybody.

Nick Urban [00:54:50]:
Okay. To take advantage of some of this at home. Are there any ways, like I’m trying to think of like the different things to potentially do, Like I don’t know if inhaling oxygen then free diving or something would be like a semi, like cheap, like hack, if you will. Because like I think the chambers this, the soft, even the soft shell chambers are pretty pricey. I don’t know the ongoing cost of them are. But like, what do you see as in like people who want to take advantage of this technology and any like, things that people can do if they don’t have access or the budget to purchase a chamber?

Jason Sonners [00:55:24]:
Yeah, I mean, I often say these days I’m like, there’s so many choices when it comes to the tools and modalities and the hacks and the things. I would say that there’s five categories to me that are what I consider to be foundational. And if you, if you don’t have those, the others I don’t think are as important. And if you do have those, that’s when exploration into some of the less still equally valuable or extremely valuable. I’m not trying to put any particular thing down, but like exercise and nutrition are foundational. And you know, I think most people agree with that, whatever that means. There’s varieties of what I mean when I say those two words, but let’s just not go there because we don’t have that much time. But essentially you can’t eat your way through a shitty or shoot through a sedentary lifestyle and you can’t exercise your way through a shitty diet because it’s, it’s not a caloric conversation, it’s a nourishment, deficiency, sufficiency conversation and Exercise, I view, is a nutrient.

Jason Sonners [00:56:28]:
It’s a required nutrient. When you move your body, what your body releases as a result of that movement nourishes you in a way that food could never. Equally is mindset and like what you think about, how you think, how you process all of this. So like the physical, the chemical and the mental and emotional are like, there’s no amount of pemf, there’s no IV that you can give me to like help my shitty mindset. Like that just doesn’t work like that, right? So those are all really important things that you need. And then the, the, the other two are essentially, I’ll say oxygen and light, you know, and, and oxygen can come in a variety of ways. Hyperbaric being the most, the highest delivery in. Per.

Jason Sonners [00:57:21]:
Per minute that you can get. But like, and then light being essentially, you know, removing some unhealthy sources of light, adding healthy sources of light and making, because light is also a nutrient. You have cytochromes, right? Parts of cells that are stimulated by different frequencies of light. And so if all you’re getting are lights that hurt you and you’re not ever getting lights that help you, you become toxic and deficient, just like you would with, in, in nourishment or just like you would in mindset, right? So this whole toxic and deficient versus you know, sort of pure and sufficient is a conversation I have with everybody understanding. Get rid of the bad versions, get as many of the good versions. You create some balance in all five of those. But back to oxygen, to answer that question, you know, a lot of people don’t breathe well, like you know, sniffing, you know, from our chest, poor pot. Like not diaphragm breathing, not doing breath work.

Jason Sonners [00:58:16]:
So there’s a lot of ways to up regulate your oxygen without hyperbaric. And, and, and those are free. You know, maybe you need to take a little class to learn how to do some breath work. But like, you know, breathing is free and, and you can do that whenever and however often you want. And learning how to breathe, like if you, again, if you don’t know how to breathe well, like don’t even go into a chamber yet. Like get the foundation down, you’ll get more out of your chamber experience. So, so just those things are going to improve oxygenation and have some of the benefits that we talked about. But unfortunately and realistically, hyperbaric, what it does, nothing else can do because it’s because oxygen does follow a pressure gradient and the only way to bypass the whole red blood cell carrying Capacity is to change atmospheric pressure.

Jason Sonners [00:59:04]:
We’re not changing the atmosphere, the actual atmosphere pressure anytime soon. And so temporarily changing it and going into a chamber. But yeah, soft chambers at home. 10 grand, 15, 20 grand. Like, some people are like, oh, yeah, I got that. Boom. And some people are like, that’s a car. Like, I could either buy a car or a chamber.

Jason Sonners [00:59:23]:
I think I need a car right now. Like, I get it. But a. You could also go somewhere to get it right. You don’t have to buy a chamber. You can do 10 hours, 10 thoughtful hours in a clinic for a thousand bucks or less. You know, it doesn’t have to be 10,000 or 20,000. But what I would never do, like, if somebody said to me, listen, I’m going to do 12 sessions in my whole life, I could either go once a month for a year or every day, 12 days in a row.

Jason Sonners [00:59:50]:
I would actually tell you to go every day, 12 days in a row. Because the cumulative effect of hyperbaric, and neither one of those are great plans necessarily, but, like, as two extremes. Once a month, you’ll get a boost of mitochondrial function, you get a boost of energy, a little decrease in immune performance, a little reduction of, you know, inflammation. But you’re not getting this, like, massive cellular change. So, again, depending on what you’re trying to accomplish. But if you really want some of the cool things that hyperbaric does, you really need to be exposed on a basis. So you want to be like, you know, what’s the amount I’m going to do? I’m do 10 hours, 20 hours. And then you want to save up some cash, and you want to look at your calendar and, like, choose a moment while you’ll just get it done.

Jason Sonners [01:00:35]:
That’s how you’ll get the most out of it. And again, it doesn’t have to be incredibly expensive. It’s not ever cheap. But it doesn’t have to be 20 grand. Like, you know, for. For one or 2,000, you can get a good protocol that at least, like, moves the needle. And then go focus on your other tools for a while. When you’re ready, jump back and do another one and go focus on your other tools.

Jason Sonners [01:00:59]:
The same way it can come and go. It doesn’t have to be there indefinitely.

Nick Urban [01:01:03]:
You know, obviously pressure is a big component, big variable in, like, the overall picture. What about just inhaling oxygen? I have an ozone machine over here, and it requires an oxygen tank. Is there any benefit of just inhaling oxygen? I know athletes use that sometimes in the sidelines.

Jason Sonners [01:01:20]:
Yeah, I Mean, you could again, if you’re. These are just, you know, rough numbers, but if you’re 98% saturated, you’ll get about 1 or 2%. But to breathe 100 oxygen to pick up like 2%, it’s, you know, the, the benefit ratio is not, not really there. You’ll, you know, the pressure of oxygen might go up. 20 millimeters of mercury. You’ll get some driving in if you did it while like ewat, if you know what ewat is. And people love to compare ewat to hyperbaric. And that just pisses me off, because I love you.

Jason Sonners [01:01:54]:
I think it’s an incredible tool, but it’s not hyperbaric and I love hyperbaric. It’s incredible tool. It’s not you. I don’t know why people have this fascination of comparing things that are not comparable, like apples and oranges. Well, they’re both fruit. But that’s kind of where the, you know, that’s kind of where it begins and ends. So, you know, ewat, you’re. You’re messing with the supply and demand, right? So you’re using up oxygen as you’re exercising, and now you’re flowing higher levels of oxygen in.

Jason Sonners [01:02:25]:
So, you know, increase demand, then you can increase supply. Then you can increase demand, you could decrease supply, which is going to have CO2 buildup, which is going to push more oxygen into yourself. So if you’re, you know, that’s another way less expensive, not anything like hyperbaric, but a way to exercise red blood cells, play with gas, you know, the gas management, let’s say, inside your bloodstream, which, you know, also has some additional benefits as well. But, you know, there’s, there are steps in between if people need those. Steps in between.

Nick Urban [01:02:59]:
Yeah. Okay. This is a bit of a curveball, but are you a fan of air filters? Like, do you filter your home air, your office air, with any particular technologies or devices? Because as an oxygen guy, I have a feeling that you care about other oxygen outside of the chamber as well.

Jason Sonners [01:03:20]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, my whole house is. I have air filters in my house. I have air filters in the office. I have different air filters in the room that pulls the air that fills my chambers. Because you’re, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re breathing, you’re. You’re absorbing even more of anything else that might be in the air. So, yeah, air purity is a thing.

Nick Urban [01:03:47]:
Okay, we will start to wind this one down because we’ve already been going for an hour. It’s been a blast. Chatting all these like gases and other stuff. We have a lot more to cover too. There’s a lot of topics we can discuss because we haven’t even gotten like your framework of health, your unifying framework of health, and how you can like help people get clear on building a stack or protocol for their particular goals. So perhaps we’ll do round two at some point. But if people want to find your work online to connect with you, if they’re local, to come check out your clinic, how do they go about that?

Jason Sonners [01:04:22]:
Yeah. So anything hyperbaric related specifically? H HBOT USA. So HBOT, like hyperbaric oxygen therapy. HBOT USA.com is our main website. We sell nothing there. We just teach people what hyperbaric is, what it does. And like, if you want to learn more about it, I also have a YouTube channel with about 600 some odd videos on there, all either hyperbaric or hyperbaric. And so every question you’ve asked about oxidation stacking, which things we combine, which things we don’t.

Jason Sonners [01:04:53]:
Why, for which reasons, like all the different indications or potential reasons that hyperbaric, you know, that’s something we continue to build to put out a video every week. And so that’s just another free resource of content. The HBOT course.com is where we have our training program. So someone who’s opening a clinic or running a clinic that hasn’t been trained in hyperbaric. We offer online and in person training both in terms of the, you know, the actual technology and the science. But we also have business support. So I do a lot of business consulting and protocol development for clinics who are trying to figure out how to like stack these things the same way I do for an individual person. I help clinics and companies build protocols that they can then offer to their clients and patients.

Jason Sonners [01:05:40]:
So all that kind of lives on the HBOT course.com and New Jersey Hyperbaric. So New NJHBOT or New Jersey HBOT are the website associated with our New Jersey clinic. And then Core Therapies is our whole clinic where we have like five chiropractors, functional medicine, hyperbaric massage, acupuncture, a whole longevity lounge that’s all inside of Core Therapies. If you happen to be in New Jersey or the area and you want to come check us out, that’s Core therapies dot net. Nice.

Nick Urban [01:06:13]:
And shout out your books too.

Jason Sonners [01:06:14]:
So I have written four books, Wellness to the Core, Oxygen Under Pressure, a textbook on hyperbaric oxygen, and then the Fulfilled Physician, which is really like a, a philosophy and business book for, for clinic owners and, and doctors to kind of like recapture the purpose that they set out once upon a time when they thought, this is how I thought practice was going to be. So. And if it doesn’t turn out that it was exactly what you were hoping for, it’s a way to reclaim sort of that original vision and, and move your business back in the direction that you were hoping that one day it would go. So beautiful.

Nick Urban [01:06:51]:
You’ve got a lot going on. My team is going to have a doozy getting that all in the show Notes. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It’s been a pleasure.

Jason Sonners [01:07:00]:
Yeah, no, Nick, I’ve had a great time and I would love to do a part two one day. So let’s keep chatting away and if you have any questions or anything, just never hesitate to reach out.

Nick Urban [01:07:07]:
Thank you.

Jason Sonners [01:07:08]:
Yeah.

Nick Urban [01:07:08]:
All right, until next time.

Jason Sonners [01:07:09]:
Take care.

Nick Urban [01:07:11]:
Thanks for tuning in to high performance longevity. If you got value today, the best way to support the the show is to leave a review or share it with someone who’s ready to upgrade their healthspan. You can find all the episodes, show notes and resources [email protected] until next time, stay energized, stay bioharmonized, and be an outlier.